Feeding fish to prevent cannibalism

To: CrabDr@yahoogroups.com
From: "Julia Crab"
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:54:06 -0000
Subject: [CrabDr] Re: New Treatment/Prevention Idea for Cannibalism

--- In CrabDr@yahoogroups.com, Crab Researcher wrote:
> Why the switch to silversides? Do they come frozen?
>


People had so much ire and upset from killing innocent goldfish, and
there were so many people that were worried about
disease/bacteria/flukes from sick feeders that we needed to find an
alternative treatment for the whole-animal feed. Z'ava found
silversides first, then I found them at Petco (different company). The
crabs love them, nobody has to kill anything, and people stopped
telling me I was cruel (for murdering feeder fish) or endangering my
crabs (from bacteria/parasites).

Win-win situation!

I personally am of the opinon that crabs are evolved to eat
diseased/infested foods by their very nature and wouldn't be at risk
for some (if not all) of the goldfish diseases. I wrote to Dr.
Greenaway to ask his opinion, but I think he's forgotten to answer. So
in the interests of peace, I switched my recommendation to the
silversides.

Kerie

To: CrabDr@yahoogroups.com
From: "Crab Researcher"
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:24:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [CrabDr] Re: New Treatment/Prevention Idea for Cannibalism


I'm sorry you had to deal with people saying you were
cruel. That always hurts, especially when you had the
goal to feed what you thought was the best for your
crabs.

Well, I'm glad Z'ava found a very close alternative
that other people can live with too. ..and if the
crabs like it, then why not?

I still don't think it would completely clear up the
danger of bacteria/parasites... as I'm sure the
factory does not hand pick only the healthy one to be
packaged. But they must have some quality control...
or else they would go out of business.

I agree with you Kerie, most animals (if not all to a
certain extent) have an immune system... especially
fortified in the GI tract. Like you said, rotten food
has been on the hermit crab's plate since the
beginning I would assume. Heck, they'll eat a dead
animal carcase for as long as it takes! and they eat
other animals feces for goodness sakes! It's all
about putting things into perspective.... but it's
also about putting the concerns of the hermit crab
owner in perspective as well. Not many owners would
intentionally give their crabs a rotten meal...

Humans as well, have a really immunologically
fortified GI System, and we are still brought down by
salmonella and virulent E. coli.

I guess feeding sick goldfish might be like playing
Russian roulette, but we don't know the odds.

I bet feeding silverside is still Russian roulette,
but with better odds.

Were the odds still acceptable with goldfish? It
depends on who you ask... and we may never know for
sure.

I'm glad it worked out though.

Thanks for bringing me up-to-date.
-Lisa

To: CrabDr@yahoogroups.com
From: "Julia Crab"
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 02:01:37 -0000
Subject: [CrabDr] Re: New Treatment/Prevention Idea for Cannibalism



--- In CrabDr@yahoogroups.com, Crab Researcher wrote:
> I'm sorry you had to deal with people saying you were
> cruel. That always hurts, especially when you had the
> goal to feed what you thought was the best for your
> crabs.
>

Thanks so much. I really took a lot of flak for this, and I'm still
smarting.

> Well, I'm glad Z'ava found a very close alternative
> that other people can live with too. ..and if the
> crabs like it, then why not?
>
> I still don't think it would completely clear up the
> danger of bacteria/parasites... as I'm sure the
> factory does not hand pick only the healthy one to be
> packaged. But they must have some quality control...
> or else they would go out of business.
>

One of the things that came up in my research is that most bacteria
and parasites are killed by freezing for a week or more, and the
silversides come frozen. I think that the risk of disease from the
pre-killed frozen fish is next to nil. My crabs like to eat the
siilversides as much as they did the goldfish, and eat the same bits
in the same order. And the silversides are salt water fish, so
they've come "pre-soaked."

> I agree with you Kerie, most animals (if not all to a
> certain extent) have an immune system... especially
> fortified in the GI tract. Like you said, rotten food
> has been on the hermit crab's plate since the
> beginning I would assume. Heck, they'll eat a dead
> animal carcase for as long as it takes! and they eat
> other animals feces for goodness sakes!

And what Greenaway has said about the gastric mill, and the things
I've read about it myself suggest that your average fluke or large
parasitical organism wouldn't survive being ground to bits smaller
than a micron. But the fact that bacteria can get into the substrate
and grow could be of concern, so all in all, I think the new fish
meal has worked out for the best all around. Feeder goldfish are,
apparently, notorious for ick, hole-in-head, flukes, blah blah
gross, ad nauseum, just by their very nature and the way they're
raised. They also are apparently not that nutritious to salt water
fish, and depending on them can cause nutrient deficiencies in large
carnivorous fish.

However, I still thought the risk of aggression was worse than the
risk of bacteria. And my crabs really, REALLY love this meal -- they
get so excited to see a whole dead fish in the bowl. Itchy (a small
compressus) always tries to drag the fish off, it's so cute to
watch. It's just nice that we found a happy ending to this conundrum
and I don't have to feel guilty telling people (some of whom are
strict vegans or members of PETA) to execute a couple of goldfish
weekly. It was hard even for me to do, and I've had reptiles and
other animals that eat live food for over 25 years. So I can only
imagine how difficult it was for someone less callous than I.

Good to have you back, Lisa. Let's cure some crab maladies!