Crab Cakes 10-17-07

CrabDr: Optimizing Hermit Crab Health

Today’s Date (Month dd, 200y): 10,17,2007

Your First Name: Elizabeth Email: xxxxxx@telus.net
Name/ID of Sick Crab: Crab Cakes Type of Crab: --Select--

How tall is the sick crab at eye level if it were walking? 1 1/4in
How long have you had this crab? 6 wks
How long ago did the crab last molt? ???
How long has the crab been sick? 3-4days
Has the sick crab recently experienced a change from the normal temperature range? This could happen if the crab were taken out of the tank and placed outside or in a different room, etc. No
Has the sick crab recently experienced a change from the normal humidity range? Yes, increased
Has the crab already passed? No
Is there anything you have tried to help the crab? What? increase moisture,apples,carrot,grape

Please put a check next to the following symptoms that your crab is exhibiting:


1 Not eating (they normally eat at night)
1 Not drinking (they normally drink at night)
0 Smells fishy/bad
0 Blowing tiny bubbles in the bath water
0 Making tiny crackle and pop sounds
0 Dropping limbs
0 Wearing a shell that is too small
1 Lowered eye stalks (most of the time)
0 Injured
0 Dying shortly after molting
1 Has cannibalized/injured another crab
0 Is stuck to the inside of a painted shell
0 Is more pale than usual
0 Its exoskeleton has not gained back color after a molt
0 Frothing at the mouth
0 Secreting brown liquid
1 Not moving
0 Has left its snail shell (gone streaking)
0 Missing both pincher claws
0 Has mites (float to surface of the bath water)
1 Hanging out of its shell
0 Has cloudy eyes
0 Stuck in its old exoskeleton
0 Has a wide stance, almost flat to the ground
0 Dark splotches on its abdomen
0 Deformed limb(s)
0 Has crust between its eyes
0 Its exoskeleton has not hardened after a molt
1 Showing other symptoms: other shell in tank with cr

Conditions Evaluation

For the following questions, please answer with regards to the main crabitat, or with regards to the tank in which the sick hermit crab spent most of its time.

What type of material do you use as a substrate?
0None
0Gravel
0Sand (rock)
1Sand (coral/shell)
0Calci Sand
0Coconut Husk Fibers
0Coconut Husk Chips
0Soil/Dirt
0Paper Towel/Newspaper
0Wood Chips/Shavings (not coconut husk)
0Other:

What is the height of the TALLEST crab at eye level while it walks? 1 1/2 in
How deep is the DEEPEST part of the substrate? 2 1/2inc
Describe the moisture content of the substrate. Moist

How is the Crabitat Heated?
0Not Heated
1Under-tank-heater (UTH)
0Red heat lamp
0Lights (not heat lamp)
0The whole room is heated
0Heated pond
0Sun/Windows
0Other:

What is the typical LOW end of the temperature range of the tank? 70
What is the typical HIGH end of the temperature range of the tank? 75

How is the Humidity Regulated in the Tank?
0Not Regulated
1Misted everyday
0Misted Every 2 Days
0Misted Twice a Week
0Misted Weekly or Less
1Covering The Tank
0Moist Substrate
1Spong(es) in Water
0Humidifier in Tank
0Waterfall in Tank
0Big Pond in Tank
0Other:

What is the normal LOW relative humidity in the crabitat? ?
What is the normal HIGH relative humidity in the crabitat? ?

Is there anything you would like to add about the tank conditions?


Nutrition & Hydration

Please write down what you normally feed your hermit crab(s). commercial food with fresh fruit and vegies
How often is the TYPE of food changed to another? every 2 days
How long is a serving of food kept in the tank? 1 day
How deep is the fresh water dish/pond? 1/2 inch
How deep is the salt water dish/pond? 1/2
Does every water dish have a sponge in it? No

Do you provide supplemental calcium?
1No
0Calci Sand
0Oyster Shell
0Cuttle Bone
0Coral Sand
0Sand Dollar
0Calcium Supplement Powder
0Cheese/Yogurt/Dairy

Do you provide any other vitamin or mineral supplements? If yes, please explain. no
How often do you give your crabs a bath? Once every 6 months
What do you use as bath water? Fresh water without chlorine (treated, bottled)
What is the temperature of the bath water? Slightly warmer than the crabitat
Do you bathe a species differently than another? Please explain.
Is there anything else you would like to add about water, nutrition or bathing? n

Please continue to the page below.
Social & Environmental Interactions

Are there shells available a size SMALLER than each crab is wearing? No
Are there shells available a size LARGER than each crab is wearing? Yes
Are there things for the crabs to climb on? Yes
Are there enough hiding places for each crab to be hidden at the same time? No
How many total crabs are/were in the tank with the sick crab 0
What is the size of the tank in GALLONS? Estimate if you need to. (1L = 0.264gal) 5

What types of hermit crabs/animals do you have in this tank?
1Caribbean; PP; C. clypeatus
0Ecuadorian; E; C. compressus
0Indo; C. brevimanus
0Strawberry; C. perlatus
0Australian; C. variabilis
0Ruggie; C. rugosus
0C. cavipes
0C. purpureus
0C. rubescens
0C. scaevola
0C. spinosa / C. olivieri
0C. violascens
0Other land/amphibious crabs (non-hermit crab)
0Freshwater crabs
0Saltwater crabs
0Frogs
0Freshwater fish
0Saltwater fish

What type of plants do you have in this tank? none

Could the hermit crab(s) have been exposed to:
1) pesticides by spraying plants, having Advantage on pets, etc. No
2) soap from dishes, washing hands, cleaning tank, etc. No
3) any volatile (fumy) cleaning products like ammonia, bleach, alcohol , etc. No
4) any heavy metals, such as a cage, twist ties, power cords, etc. No
5) smoke from cigarettes, etc. in the house No
6) perfume, colognes, room fresheners, etc. in the house No
If yes, please explain.

What is the elevation of the city you live in? 1501-2500ft (458-762m)
Do you boil crabitat things that can be boiled to get them clean? Yes
Do you bake wood objects and un-washable things in the oven to clean them? No
How do you wash the washable things in the tank? Water only
How do you wash the crab dishes? Water only
How often do you clean the toys, shells, tank decoration, etc.? every 3 months
How often do you clean the whole tank and everything in it? every month
Please write any comments about the hermit crab's social or environmental interactions?

Total cereal for cannibalism

To: CrabDr@yahoogroups.com
From: xxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:41:26 -0000
Subject: [CrabDr] New Treatment/Prevention Idea for Cannibalism



This is a spin-off from Lucky's goldfish method. The idea is that cannibalistic hermit
crabs may be deficient in some type of nutrient. I postulated that it might be vitamin
B12... but now that I know a little bit more from my nutrition class.. it could be
anything!

So, the goldfish method was based on the idea that organ mean (brains and eyes
included) contain high amounts of vitamins and minerals, which is true. And Lucky
reported fewer attacks using this method.
The problem was that some people were not comfortable giving their crabs feeder
goldfish, which is fine as everyone needs to make decisions for themselves....

Well, there might be another answer... we'll need to see if it helps stop cannibalism
though.

Here it is:

"Total" brand cornflakes as a vitamin & mineral supplement. My crabs have already
had some for about a month, off and on, and are doing well. (So, it's safe so far.)

What do you guys think?
Lisa

Feeding fish to prevent cannibalism

To: CrabDr@yahoogroups.com
From: "Julia Crab"
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:54:06 -0000
Subject: [CrabDr] Re: New Treatment/Prevention Idea for Cannibalism

--- In CrabDr@yahoogroups.com, Crab Researcher wrote:
> Why the switch to silversides? Do they come frozen?
>


People had so much ire and upset from killing innocent goldfish, and
there were so many people that were worried about
disease/bacteria/flukes from sick feeders that we needed to find an
alternative treatment for the whole-animal feed. Z'ava found
silversides first, then I found them at Petco (different company). The
crabs love them, nobody has to kill anything, and people stopped
telling me I was cruel (for murdering feeder fish) or endangering my
crabs (from bacteria/parasites).

Win-win situation!

I personally am of the opinon that crabs are evolved to eat
diseased/infested foods by their very nature and wouldn't be at risk
for some (if not all) of the goldfish diseases. I wrote to Dr.
Greenaway to ask his opinion, but I think he's forgotten to answer. So
in the interests of peace, I switched my recommendation to the
silversides.

Kerie

To: CrabDr@yahoogroups.com
From: "Crab Researcher"
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:24:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [CrabDr] Re: New Treatment/Prevention Idea for Cannibalism


I'm sorry you had to deal with people saying you were
cruel. That always hurts, especially when you had the
goal to feed what you thought was the best for your
crabs.

Well, I'm glad Z'ava found a very close alternative
that other people can live with too. ..and if the
crabs like it, then why not?

I still don't think it would completely clear up the
danger of bacteria/parasites... as I'm sure the
factory does not hand pick only the healthy one to be
packaged. But they must have some quality control...
or else they would go out of business.

I agree with you Kerie, most animals (if not all to a
certain extent) have an immune system... especially
fortified in the GI tract. Like you said, rotten food
has been on the hermit crab's plate since the
beginning I would assume. Heck, they'll eat a dead
animal carcase for as long as it takes! and they eat
other animals feces for goodness sakes! It's all
about putting things into perspective.... but it's
also about putting the concerns of the hermit crab
owner in perspective as well. Not many owners would
intentionally give their crabs a rotten meal...

Humans as well, have a really immunologically
fortified GI System, and we are still brought down by
salmonella and virulent E. coli.

I guess feeding sick goldfish might be like playing
Russian roulette, but we don't know the odds.

I bet feeding silverside is still Russian roulette,
but with better odds.

Were the odds still acceptable with goldfish? It
depends on who you ask... and we may never know for
sure.

I'm glad it worked out though.

Thanks for bringing me up-to-date.
-Lisa

To: CrabDr@yahoogroups.com
From: "Julia Crab"
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 02:01:37 -0000
Subject: [CrabDr] Re: New Treatment/Prevention Idea for Cannibalism



--- In CrabDr@yahoogroups.com, Crab Researcher wrote:
> I'm sorry you had to deal with people saying you were
> cruel. That always hurts, especially when you had the
> goal to feed what you thought was the best for your
> crabs.
>

Thanks so much. I really took a lot of flak for this, and I'm still
smarting.

> Well, I'm glad Z'ava found a very close alternative
> that other people can live with too. ..and if the
> crabs like it, then why not?
>
> I still don't think it would completely clear up the
> danger of bacteria/parasites... as I'm sure the
> factory does not hand pick only the healthy one to be
> packaged. But they must have some quality control...
> or else they would go out of business.
>

One of the things that came up in my research is that most bacteria
and parasites are killed by freezing for a week or more, and the
silversides come frozen. I think that the risk of disease from the
pre-killed frozen fish is next to nil. My crabs like to eat the
siilversides as much as they did the goldfish, and eat the same bits
in the same order. And the silversides are salt water fish, so
they've come "pre-soaked."

> I agree with you Kerie, most animals (if not all to a
> certain extent) have an immune system... especially
> fortified in the GI tract. Like you said, rotten food
> has been on the hermit crab's plate since the
> beginning I would assume. Heck, they'll eat a dead
> animal carcase for as long as it takes! and they eat
> other animals feces for goodness sakes!

And what Greenaway has said about the gastric mill, and the things
I've read about it myself suggest that your average fluke or large
parasitical organism wouldn't survive being ground to bits smaller
than a micron. But the fact that bacteria can get into the substrate
and grow could be of concern, so all in all, I think the new fish
meal has worked out for the best all around. Feeder goldfish are,
apparently, notorious for ick, hole-in-head, flukes, blah blah
gross, ad nauseum, just by their very nature and the way they're
raised. They also are apparently not that nutritious to salt water
fish, and depending on them can cause nutrient deficiencies in large
carnivorous fish.

However, I still thought the risk of aggression was worse than the
risk of bacteria. And my crabs really, REALLY love this meal -- they
get so excited to see a whole dead fish in the bowl. Itchy (a small
compressus) always tries to drag the fish off, it's so cute to
watch. It's just nice that we found a happy ending to this conundrum
and I don't have to feel guilty telling people (some of whom are
strict vegans or members of PETA) to execute a couple of goldfish
weekly. It was hard even for me to do, and I've had reptiles and
other animals that eat live food for over 25 years. So I can only
imagine how difficult it was for someone less callous than I.

Good to have you back, Lisa. Let's cure some crab maladies!

Molt problems and vitamin B12

To: CrabDr@yahoogroups.com
From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 02:20:33 -0000
Subject: [CrabDr] NEW IDEA --B12--



What if crabs who did not do well after a molt were deficient in vitamin B12? B12 is used to help synthesis DNA during cell division. A lack of B12 would stop the proliferation of cells needed just after a molt. This could cause what looked like a pause in the post-molt recovery.

The easiest sources of B12 are found in milk, meat, and eggs. I don't know if it is bad to feed crabs milk, but I'm just going to knock out that option for now.

Vitamin B12 is also degraded with excess heat. I bet that hermit crab food and other manufactured pet foods would be more prone to loose the B12 during cooking and processing. Therefore, if vitamin B12 were not fortified in these foods, they could be deficient.

It may be a good idea to supplement the diet with B12. There are some water treatments for coral reefs that contain B12. I would suggest putting B12 in a dish of water of the crabs, or putting the supplement on the food.

Emily, you may want to try treating your crab with vitamin B12, or using an antibiotic that contains B12 like "saltwater Maracyn-Two" which is theoretically nontoxic to invertebrates. (Your crab may also be suffering from a bacterial infection.)

Here's a link to giving antibiotics: http://tinyurl.com/58ywb

I'm trying this myself right now on a crab with similar symptoms. I'll be sure to write in more detail later, but my dad is visiting and there is less time available at the moment.

-Lisa

Medicinal bath for general sickness

Here's how I would suggest doing this:

1) Making the medicinal bath water (which you will make fresh each treatment):

A. The water needs to be the temperature of the crabitat, or about75-80 degrees.

B. You will need to add the appropriate amount of stress coat, or dechlorinater, to purify the water.

C. You will need to add 1tsp -1/2 tbs sea salt per cup of water to recreate the salinity of the hermit crabs natural shell water, which is about as salty as the ocean. (Burrgren & McMahon, 1988).

D. You will need to add the medicine (antibiotic or Mela Fix) and do some math to figure out how to get the dosage right for the amount of bath water you want to create.

2) Treating the Crab

A. Bath the crab as normal, but leave it in the bath water for five minutes or so. (I have seen my crabs voluntarily give themselves a bath for up to 30 minutes.. so they will be fine under water for 5minutes)

B. Do this to the crab once a day, around the same time, for three to seven days. Antibiotics should be administered for seven days (or as long as is indicated on the product label.) This may be hard on hermit crabs, to be bathed seven days in a row... so use your own judgment. Also, if your crab buries... you may not want to disturb him for another bath (AS LONG AS HE HAS BEEN BATHED AT LEAST 3 DAYS IN A ROW, then you can decide to discontinue or not)

C. You may decide you want to use the treated bath water in their water dish as well. This is a good idea... as ideally, the antibiotics or Mela Fix should be given continuously. The only drawback is that you will need to remove the other crabs, so they do not drink the medicinal water. You'll want to only treat the sick crab(because once you start treatment you will need to continue for at least 3 days so you don't create resistant bacterial strains.)